56. Swiping Right (and Left) in the Regency Era
KIM: Hi, everybody! Welcome back to another Lost Ladies of Lit mini episode. I’m Kim Askew…
AMY: And I’m Amy Helmes. Kim, you and I discussed our opinions on the Regency-Era TV show “Bridgerton'' earlier this year in the episode about “real-life Lady Whistledowns.”
KIM: Right. We had mixed feelings about it. But it’s no surprise that Hollywood is clamoring to capitalize on the success of “Bridgerton” by churning out other series in that same vein, including, it would seem, a dating reality show.
AMY: Yeah, you knew that was coming, right?
KIM: Yeah.
AMY: So this past summer, NBC’s streaming platform Peacock announced that they had a reality series in the works called “Pride & Prejudice: An Experiment in Romance,” which is basically, I think, kind of “The Bachelorette” meets “Jane Austen.” I think that’s what they’re going for.
KIM: Yeah. Here’s what the press release had to say about the show. So in their own words: “A heroine looking for her duke will sign up for the ultimate social experiment in romance. Transported to a Regency-style England, a group of eligible hopeful suitors will have to win the heart of our heroine, and her court. Housed in a castle in the countryside, set on a beautiful backdrop of rolling hills, the heroine and suitors will experience that with which dreams are made of. From carriage rides and boat rides on the lake to archery and handwritten letters to communicate, they will be immersed in a time-traveling quest for love. In the end, our heroine and her suitors will discover if the ultimate romantic experience will find them true love.”
AMY: Okay, so I mean, we’re obviously going to watch, but I’m also sort of rolling my eyes a little bit. And I also want to point out that the true Jane Austen nerds among us know that this series has already been done — 20 years ago. It was called “Regency House Party” and it aired on BBC and PBS here in the states. Do you remember that, Kim?
KIM: Oh my god, yeah, it was the OG dating show for people who like this sort of thing. Oh my god, we loved it.
AMY: Yeah, we did. Ergo, we’re going to watch this new one, too.
KIM: Totally. At least the first episode.
AMY: Yes. So in that earlier “Regency House Party” show, there were five women and five men (and a couple of “chaperones” and then, of course, servants) they were all thrown together on a country estate for several weeks to find out who might find love.
KIM: I remember watching this show with you and writing about it for our blog, Romancing the Tome, way back in the day. It was so much fun!
AMY: And I liked that it took an educational bent; it sort of explained the protocol and parameters of Regency-Era courtship (which I very much hope this new series on Peacock plans to do).
KIM: Yeah, I hope so, too! Anyway, the old show also made the contestants adhere strictly to how people of this era would have lived in the year 1811. So not only were they dressing in full Regency get-ups, they were also living without any modern conveniences. They even used chamber pots, which is basically what living with my toddler is like right now and, for the record, I wouldn’t want to do it, you know, regularly or anything.
AMY: No. It kind of takes the “romance” out of the Regency romance.
KIM: The bloom off the rose.
AMY: Yeah. Getting to walk in Jane Austen’s shoes, I guess, does have its trade-offs. But the reason we bring up this earlier show is because you can actually still watch it. It’s on YouTube; they have it in its entirety. So if you simply can’t wait for this new series to come out, now’s a good time to go back and watch “Regency House Party.” It was fun. (I think we both agreed.) And I think Richard E. Grant was the narrator of that show. Who doesn’t love him?
KIM: He’s our favorite, right? Withnail and I and The Scarlet Pimpernel.
AMY: Yeah. I don’t think he appears on the show, but yeah, his voice is the one narrating it. And the contestants do get up to some very mild antics, and there were some juicy elements, for sure, but it’s nothing like what you see these days on “The Bachelor” or “The Bachelorette.” But something tells me that the Peacock platform show might aim to be a bit more tawdry in that respect. Who knows?
KIM: Yes, I’m maybe getting that feeling too. I have a confession to make, though: I don’t think I’ve ever watched “The Bachelor” or “The Bachelorette.”
AMY: That’s not a confession; that’s a point of pride!
KIM: Thank you. Thank you. I remember in watching “Regency House Party,” though, how sobering it was to realize how unfair that world was for women. The men on the show were living it up and having a great time, and the women were basically bored out of their skulls and pretty limited in what they could do. There was a LOT of needlepoint going on. And for someone who gets a headache doing anything remotely like that… I would have spent a lot of time hiding out in my lacy boudoir with a case of “the hysterics,” I know.
AMY: Fetch the smelling salts!
KIM: Exactly.
AMY: But going back to needlepoint for a minute, I do want to point out that I used to do a lot of needlepoint. Did you know that?
KIM: No!
AMY: My grandma taught me. Growing up when I was really little, my grandma taught me how to cross stitch and then so I did it a lot when I was a kid and even kind of in my 20s I did a few pieces, but my mom, for Christmas this year, gave me a Jane Austen cross stitch pattern.
KIM: Love it. Oh, that’s sweet. Well, as long as it’s by choice. I should point out.
AMY: Yeah, exactly. So in addition to being bored out of their skulls, the women also the whole time had to be under the watchful eye of these stick-in-the-mud older chaperones. So that’s one of the first elements of Regency-Era dating that we’re probably going to see in the Peacock series. The dreaded chaperone! Because it would be unthinkable for an unmarried young lady to be alone in the company of any man who’s not immediate family.
KIM: Exactly, which is why, in “Bridgerton,” it was so scandalous when Daphne is caught out in the garden, at night, with the duke, right? That sort of predicament could basically ruin a young woman — just the perception of something untoward would be catastrophic for her reputation, right?
AMY: Yeah, men could just sow every wild oat they wanted, but a female would be “damaged goods” if her virtue was ever cast into doubt.
KIM: That’s right, yeah, and you say “damaged goods,” as though women were a commodity, but basically, that’s what they were. There’s a reason they called it the “marriage market,” right? They had a “season” each year when the eligible bachelors would be in town (usually spring until late summer), and it could be a desperate gambit to get your daughter married off during that time frame.
AMY: And getting back to those lurking chaperones, getting to know a potential suitor just must have been so awkward. You know, you’ve got this buzzkill lady hovering over your shoulder, probably eavesdropping, you know? You have to watch everything you say.
KIM: Yeah, which is why the dances back then were so important. As we’ve seen from many a Jane Austen flick, those moments on the dance floor were sometimes the only opportunities for meaningful, semi-private conversation, if you think about it.
AMY: And even then, you know, they’re having to weave in and out with other dancers the whole time. So it’s like, “Oh, we’re talking… I would love to continue this gripping conversation, as soon as I sashay around this other dude over here, I’ll be right back.” Can you imagine that?!
KIM: I can, but it’s not pretty. I have two left feet (you know this) so trying to imagine concentrating on dance steps while also conversing intelligently…. It would be a huge challenge for me, personally. I don’t think it would work … yeah.
AMY: I really love the image of that. I can picture it so clearly in my head: you attempting little prancy, dainty steps. You’d have on the cute, you know, Empire-waist dress; you’d have that smile plastered on your face. I would pay money to see that.
KIM: And I would be blushing so hard, right?! Somebody please hire us to be extras in the background of a “Sanditon” ball so we can just put this theory to the test!
AMY: Make this happen, somebody!!!! (Okay, so we want to be officially extras now in “The Gilded Age” and also in “Sanditon.”
KIM: Hopefully someone from Hollywood is listening right now. Or the BBC.
AMY: Yes. We will travel.
KIM: We’ll travel, yep.
AMY: On our dime!
KIM: Yes.
AMY: I’m going to throw that out.
KIM: I’ll pay them!
AMY: Somebody should offer that, sort of like a Groupon thing, to go be an extra.
KIM: Maybe that should be our side business. Our side hustle.
AMY: Yeah.
KIM: Okay.
AMY: But anyway, getting back to dancing and courtship, it was actually tricky in more ways than one, because when you were at a ball, you were not supposed to overdo your time on the dance floor with any one particular young man, okay? If you danced more than two “sets” together (and a set was approximately about 15 minutes), you were basically engaged. So basically, ladies, keep an eye on that clock lest your name be suddenly showing up in marriage banns! And also, from what I understand, even writing letters was not sanctioned during the courtship period. Men did not write to women unless they were married or they were relatives. And I don’t think I was aware of that until I was researching for this because… I’m thinking back to Pride & Prejudice when Elizabeth received a letter from Mr. Darcy, right? (But if you remember, he hand-delivered that letter to her. He did not send it via post. So since he was technically flouting the rules of etiquette, he had to deliver it to her in person, because that was how they would avoid a scandal that way.)
KIM: And it was really sexy, too.
AMY: Yes, yes.
KIM: And I remember in Sense & Sensibility, Marianne causes confusion because she does correspond, via letter, with Willoughby. Eleanor, then, thinks, of course, they have an understanding with one another.
AMY: Yeah, and then also unmarried young people -- if they caught each other’s eye across a room, neither could just go up and be like, “Hey, how’s it going? Nice to meet you. Come here often?” (You know, that sort of thing.) It did not work like that. You needed to have a third party who would introduce the man to the woman (And it wouldn’t be the other way around, because a woman would never be introduced to a man, because she would be considered the person of “honor”). Also, unmarried young people could not call each other by their first names. (I think we did know that.) A gentleman caller could visit a young woman’s home for no longer than 30 minutes at a time. (I actually like this one, because if the dude’s a kind of dud, it’s not too prolonged, right?)
KIM: Yeah, I feel like that about all these things. Like, for the wrong guy, it’s great to have all these things in place. For the right guy, it’s certainly a deterrent.
AMY: Yes, it’s hard. It’s a challenge. And actually, the first time a young couple would ever be allowed to be alone together in a room was for the actual proposal itself. Of course, then everyone makes themselves scarce, you know?
KIM: God, talk about the pressure! This reminds me of that proposal scene between Jane and Mr. Bingley in Pride and Prejudice when the rest of the family is trying to keep it together but they’re basically screaming on the inside.
AMY: So great. And speaking of sisters, also, a suitor had to make sure he was taking interest in the “appropriate” daughter of any given family … so it was bad form to like a younger sister who wasn’t “out” in society yet, especially if the older ones are still on the market. So as a woman, you had to pray your big sister wasn’t homely! And also, once a woman was in her mid-to-late 20s, she was said to be “on the shelf” which is akin to maybe “put out to pasture.” She’s done. She was seen as less marriageable by that age.
KIM: I mean, literally, the only thing you can do is kind of laugh because it's very sad. It also goes without saying that you could not marry outside of your social sphere, in addition to all this. So men can have these lower-class mistresses, but they were shunned if they married a woman from a lower class.
AMY: Yeah, and getting back to “Bridgerton,” it’s possible we’ll get to see some of that more in the next season, because they’re supposed to be focusing on this character of Anthony, Daphne’s older brother and we know from Season 1 that he is in love with an actress. So we’ll see how that plays out. Anway, obviously, these courtship rules applied to people living in the higher ranks of society. If you were a scullery maid, this sort of protocol didn’t really apply to you, which sounds good -- but if you were a servant, marriage usually wasn’t in the cards for you anyway. So … sorry! If you were a sad singleton in Regency England, though, and you were looking for love in the midst of all these difficult parameters, there were a few superstitions that could help you find love during this time period. So on the eve of the Feast of St. Agnes, for example, young women were advised to take pins, transfer them all from the pin-cushion into their sleeves while reciting “Our Fathers” with each pin. And if you did that, that night, you’d supposedly dream of the man you were going to marry.
KIM: Who came up with that one, I want to know?
AMY: I know… complicated!
KIM: Very. It’s about keeping them busy, or something. Okay, and that lore, though, is what John Keats based his poem, “The Eve of St. Agnes” on. That poem’s set in the Middle Ages, so that’s interesting if people were actually still buying into this in the early 1800s.
AMY: And then in one region of northern England, there was apparently also a ritual that men could do on the eve of St. Agnes: A guy could eat a whole red herring (bones and all) before retiring for the night, and he would then dream of his future wife. (Which, I don’t know; that sounds more like heartburn to me: “I was gassy and dreamed of you.”)
KIM: Yeah. Where’s the Tums? There’s another superstition that if a guy and a girl both threw seeds into a fire (and often this was done on All Hallow’s Eve), it would divine their future together. So if the seeds stayed close together and burned, they’d end up married, but if one seed jumped away from the other in the flame, that did not bode well. Awkward!
AMY: I like the idea of these things just being invented on the spot. Like a girl sitting there by the fire and she’s like, “Oh, see that? See, the seeds jumped apart. Yeah, we’re never going to be. SORRY.” There’s also something called a “dumb cake.” Have you heard of that?
KIM: I knew there was something about eating a piece of cake and dreaming of your future husband? I can’t remember where I know it from now. It’s a scene in a book, I think. But I didn’t know about it being called a dumb cake.
AMY: Yeah, it’s a dumb cake because you weren’t allowed to speak while you were baking this cake. That was part of the rule for making it. But you would prepare the cake silently as a young woman. And then after you ate it, again … dream of your future husband.
KIM: I think a mom came up with that. She didn’t feel like talking. She wanted her daughter to be quiet and said, “No talking while you make this cake and you can meet your future husband!”
AMY: Yeah, all these silly pre-teen girls.
KIM: Yeah.
AMY: Actually, it wasn’t even really cake. It was more like bread. We can include a link in our show notes that has more specifics about that.
KIM: That makes me think of the idea that when Marie Antoinette said “Let them eat cake!” she was really talking about bread. There's an argument to be made. If you wanted to take a less hocus-pocus approach to finding a mate, there were a lot of “conduct guides” for women with practical advice on attracting men. One of the most popular we found was called Sermons to Young Women. It was written by a clergyman named James Fordyce. (It’s actually the book that Mr. Collins, in Pride & Prejudice, attempts to read to the Bennett sisters, who were not having it, by the way.) The book urges women not to be too witty, because husbands don’t want that. Women should be meek and modest, dutiful and submissive. And he says the highest reward for female virtue is male attention. (I believe he wrote a version of this book for young men, too. Would be interesting to just compare those two books — something tells me we would be seeing red, right?)
AMY: Yeah. Another guy,( “Dr. Gregory” was his name) he wrote a book called A Father’s Legacy to His Daughters. (It’s kind of the same idea; same kind of book.) He writes “be even cautious in displaying your good sense. It will be thought you assume a superiority over the rest of the company. But if you have any learning, keep it a profound secret especially from men who generally look with a jealous and malignant eye on a woman of great parts and a cultivated understanding.” And he wrote this for his daughters, and I kind of sort of hope that his daughters hated him.
KIM: Can you imagine when he left the room? The scowls. So, Mary Wollstonecraft blasts these guys, specifically, and others of their ilk when she later wrote A Vindication of the Rights of Women. We could do a whole episode on her incredible clap-back. In any case, hearing all this, it sounds like it was just exhausting and miserable to try to find true love in Jane Austen’s era… (I mean, no wonder she never married!) But we wish the contestants well, anyway, on the forthcoming Pride & Prejudice: An Experiment in Romance, and we will thank our lucky stars we were born in the modern era while we’re watching it!
AMY: We keep saying we want to be cast in the balls or whatever... extras in the “Sanditon” ball. But if you were single, would you have wanted to do this show?
KIM: No, I would still want to be an extra.
AMY: If it wasn't a dating show. I would love to do, you know, do that series that's like “1940 House...”
KIM: “Manor House.”
AMY: I would love to do something like that, where they just taught you how it was all going to be.
KIM: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
AMY: I would even do the chamber pot!
KIM: Yeah, I would do all of it. I would live in a cold castle, you know, having my asthma attacks and everything, to have that experience. It's just the “Bachelor/Bachelorette” feel of the dating show idea that I don't know that I'm into. But I will reserve my opinion completely though, and watch it. But I agree, the more educational shows where you’re putting it all in practice, that sounds more up my alley, too.
AMY: Right. Like what’s her name, um, who I love… Lucy...um…
KIM: I don’t know…
AMY: Now I have to look it up.
KIM: Okay.
AMY: Oh, yeah. Lucy Worsley! Have you ever watched any of her documentaries?
KIM: No! What is it?
AMY: Oh my gosh, she is the most adorable British woman, and she has these series... (I think she writes books, too.) She does all these different series for the BBC or PBS, where she kind of takes you into like, what it was really like, like: “Sex in the Tudor Era.” Or “The Six Wives of Henry VIII.” I can't believe you don't know her!
KIM: No, I can’t believe I don’t, either!
AMY: It’s all on YouTube; you can find a ton of them. She has so many different episodes. And, oh, she’s just SO CUTE! She's always standing in the middle of a castle or Regency house and…
KIM: Yeah, I’ve got to watch this. It sounds like my perfect “chill and Netflix” show.
AMY: Or like, a sick day, being in bed and just watching it.
KIM: I feel a little cold coming on... Oh, wait; it’s Covid.
AMY: Oh! We have to figure out how to get her for a guest!
KIM: Oh my god, yeah! Let’s get her as a guest! Let’s work on that. Okay.
AMY: Okay, so sorry, we just got off on a tangent there, obsessing over Lucy. But you know, earlier we were talking about “Regency Era” dating guides from these annoying old men, but next week we have something a little bit similar. It’s Victorian SEX MANUALS.
KIM: Okay, I’m excited about this. Maybe I’m ... [laughing] I’m very excited. I think this is going to be fun. Her name was Ida Craddock — she was fascinating, and we’ve got the author of a new book about her (and other pioneers of sex positivity — as well as the zealous “smut-hunter” who was basically on a mission to to stop them at any cost.)
AMY: Yes, join us for this titillating discussion with Amy Sohn, author of The Man Who Hated Women. Your collective jaws are going to drop when you hear about Ida Craddock. She was basically a Victorian kind of sex columnist, I guess you could say. You do NOT want to miss it. Just trust us.
KIM: Yeah, she was an incredible person. It’s an incredible story. I cannot wait! Until next week, if you could take one minute out of your day to give us one of those five-star reviews where you listen to your podcast, we’d be forever grateful. Let us know you’re out there!
AMY: Yeah, we love hearing from you. So until next week, bye, everyone! Our theme song was written and performed by Jennie Malone and our logo was designed by Harriet Grant. Lost Ladies of Lit is produced by Amy Helmes and Kim Askew.