74. A Short History of Carousels

Episode 82 Carousels in Literature

AMY HELMES: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to another Lost Ladies of Lit mini episode. I'm Amy Helmes.

KIM ASKEW: And I'm Kim Askew. So last week in our discussion of noir novelist Dorothy B. Hughes, we mentioned her book Ride the Pink Horse. The pink horse is actually based off an actual vintage carousel that's famous in Taos, New Mexico. 

AMY: Yeah, they call it Tio Vivo, which means "lively uncle" in Spanish. And I'm not sure why it's called that, but I do like it. I think that would be a great band name, don't you? The Lively Uncles.

KIM: I love that. Yeah, one of your kids is going to have to start a band or something  and you can prompt them to use that name. Anyway, we talked last week about wanting to maybe explore this idea of carousels more for a mini episode. And so here we are because I mean, who doesn't love carousels, right? 

AMY: Right. They're fun. They're kind of even magical. Although I've got to say, personally speaking, carousels always give me a little tinge of anxiety. Are you feeling this at all? Do you know what I'm talking about?

KIM: Maybe. Tell us more. 

AMY: Okay. So I have memories of being a kid standing in line for carousel rides at a fair or amusement park, or what have you. And when you're standing in line, you have all this time to pick out exactly which horse you have your eye on, right? "I'm going to go get that one." And then once they let you in, everyone makes this mad, crazy dash to the horse of their dreams. And nine times out of ten, you don't make it to the horse that you were hoping to get. And then it's an out-and-out wild, frenzied race to make sure that you at least get on a horse that goes up and down.

KIM: Right. I mean, who wants one of the stationary horses? It's so boring. You don't want the horse just sitting there. 

AMY: No. And to take that one step further even, I was always so paranoid that I'd somehow have to end up on the gondola bench seat and not get a horse at all. I felt like that was a fate worse than death, to end up on the bench on a carousel.

KIM: Yeah, and I was worried that would happen. I don't remember it ever happening, but one thing that always worried me, too, is I would see, I don't know if you were at the ones where you would try to also put a hoop over something while you were on it. So I would see the hoops. They were trying to land the hoop over the hook from the horse.

AMY: It's interesting you mentioned this because when I was researching carousels for this episode, that idea comes up. So we're going to talk about that a little bit more.

KIM: Oh, cool. Okay. 

AMY: I'm fascinated that you've actually seen a carousel where you have to do that. 

KIM: I have, and I think it's almost like, you know how nervous I get when we're watching the Olympics And I'm like completely biting my nails that someone's gonna fall during the ice skating? It felt like that for me; it's not a sport, but in my mind, I think I took it a little too far, right? And speaking of these frenzied panics, in last week's episode, I happened to mention the Alfred Hitchcock film that featured a whirling carousel at the end. And I couldn't quite remember what movie it was, but I've since figured out it actually is a scene from the movie Strangers on a Train. Do you remember that? Which was adapted from a book by Patricia Highsmith, another female novelist known for her psychological thrillers. 

AMY: Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen that movie. 

KIM: Oh, okay.

AMY: I know Patricia Highsmith. She is best known for writing The Talented Mr. Ripley book series, and those have been adapted into several films, including the most famous one, I think, which is the Matt Damon/Jude Law/Gwenyth Paltrow one from 1999. You could sort of say that Patricia Highsmith maybe is another lost lady of lit. I think she's probably more well-known than last week's lost lady, Dorothy B. Hughes, though.

KIM: Yeah. 

AMY: But I'm glad that you figured out that that's where the carousel was from.

KIM: Yeah. 

AMY: I grew up calling them merry-go-rounds, I don't know about you, but, um, I started looking into the history of carousels or merry-go-rounds and honestly my eyes sort of glazed over a bit reading about them from a mechanical standpoint. I just really don't care how they were made or when they were invented. But I did find some interesting merry-go-round trivia if you'd care for me to delve into that a little bit. 

KIM: Oh yeah. Definitely. 

AMY: Okay. So first up, did you know that carousels in England spin in the opposite direction from ones in North America?

KIM: I had no idea. 

AMY: Yeah. So here in the U S if you're standing on the outside of the carousel, the horses always face right. In the UK, the horses are looking to the left, apparently. 

KIM: Huh....

AMY: I didn't know that either.

KIM: I know the cars, they were on opposite sides of the road. And so what drives that...

AMY: I don't know. 

KIM: Is it all that way? 

AMY: I don't know. British listeners out there, let us know if you can confirm this. 

KIM: Yeah, Simon Thomas, we're waiting for you to answer this question. 

AMY: And I also learned that the premise of ponies going round and round in a circle -- it actually springs from knights' training in the Middle Ages and even dating back further in the Middle East. And so I don't know if it's a game that they would sort of host or just more of a training activity, but there was an exercise where knights or riders would gallop their horses in a circle and toss a ball back and forth amongst each other while they were circling.

KIM: That seems like a sport I could be into. I could care less about football or anything like that, but, you know, with the horses and knights and all that. I think that's pretty cool. 

AMY: A new Olympic sport. But I mean, honestly, Kim, you and I can't even really catch a ball standing on our feet. 

KIM: We would just watch. Spectators. Yeah. 

AMY: Yes, but like I said, it was kind of a training exercise for horsemen in the Crusades, and the word carousel apparently stems from a Spanish term carosella, which means "little battle."

KIM: Interesting. I love this. I actually just assumed maybe it had something to do with the word carouse. This is so cool.

AMY: Yeah. And later, instead of riding the horses and tossing the balls back and forth, skilled cavalry types would actually gallop their horses in a circle and they would spear or swat down rings that were hanging from poles overhead.

KIM: This is what I must've seen when I was a kid. And now it makes sense that that's where this came from. What I saw. I had no idea that it went back that far. That's cool. 

AMY: So eventually that whole idea of spearing the rings or catching the rings became a fun thing to do at festivals and places like that. Now there was also another version of the term carousel. It was more of a ceremonial type of parade, like a military parade where knights and noblemen would ride around a pavilion or town square on their horses in a circle. Louis the XIV of France held this kind of display in the courtyard of his Tuileries Palace. I think I'm saying that right: Tuileries Palace. He held one of those to celebrate the birth of his son, and the location of that today is right next to where the Louvre is. And it's still called Le Place du Carousel in Paris. So it's like a famous landmark in Paris. 

KIM: Yeah. Now I know why it's named that. 

AMY: Yeah.

KIM: So now in terms of the carousel rides we know today, the first ones featured flying horses that hung from chains and they spun out with centrifugal force. Others moved because they were towed by horses or people who walked in a circle, pulling a rope. And then there were also hand-cranked versions. 

AMY: Yeah. And so Tio Vivo, the carousel that is mentioned in Ride the Pink Horse it works that way. It's a hand-cranked kind of thing where a guy actually has to do manual labor to get it to go around. And that particular one dates back to the 1890s. But today in North America the oldest platform carousels (and that's the kind we generally think of now where there's like a floor to the carousel) um, there's two really old ones. One is located in Oak Bluffs, Massachusetts, and there's another in Westerly, Rhode Island. And they both date back to 1876 and they were constructed by one of the most famous carousel makers in history, an Englishman named Charles Dare, which actually now has me thinking: if a British guy designed it, did he have the horses facing left or right? I believe these two, I've looked up pictures, and they go to the right, as we said North American horses do.

KIM: Well, I think we need to add this to our list of field trips. The list keeps getting longer. I guess we need to go see this for ourselves. Um, and also, uh, this is reminding me of that memorable scene from Mary Poppins where she takes the children on a carousel ride. 

AMY: It's probably one of my top 20 all-time favorite movies. But actually, I've never read any of the Mary Poppins books and those were written by P L Travers, a woman. It stands for, um, Pamela Lyndon Travers. So I guess she's another lost lady of lit that maybe we could do an episode on. I mean, she's not that lost, but I actually haven't read the Mary Poppins books, so...

KIM: No, I haven't either. And I don't know if I even remembered anything about the author or really knew much about the books. And that name isn't familiar to me, so....

AMY: Oh, okay. I thought everybody kind of knew that name. Okay. No, so I don't know, even, if the merry-go-round scene in the Disney movie actually even takes place in the book or if something Disney-fied, which is possible, I'm not sure.

KIM: Speaking of Disney, as we mentioned in last week's episode, in Griffith Park out here in Los Angeles, there's a famous carousel that you and I know really well, Amy. It's a stone's throw from your house, actually. 

AMY: Yeah. So Walt Disney, once upon a time, lived in my neighborhood after he moved to Los Angeles and he frequently took his kids to go ride this carousel that's at a nearby park. It was built in 1926. It's quite pretty. So one day while he was sitting on a bench watching his daughters ride the ponies, he was struck by the inspiration to build a theme park. You know, why can't we have a whole amusement park with all kinds of rides like this?

KIM: Yeah, and how often do we hear that you should stop and play and relax and you'll have great ideas. So that's probably the best example of that ever. And also side note: when Walt Disney had a carousel built for Disneyland, he wanted to ensure that every horse on the ride was a jumper. So there were no stationary horses, Amy. He was worried about that anxiety you mentioned at the top of the show. Thank you, Walt!

AMY: So nobody has to be standing in line, like sweating it out. Only jumpers! Guess that's what makes it the “Happiest Place on Earth,” right? 

KIM: Yep. Allegedly. 

AMY: But getting back to the Griffith Park merry-go-round that actually inspired him. If you go there today, they have a "Walt Disney sat here" plaque on a bench that's right by the carousel. And then, interestingly, at Disneyland you'll find another park bench from the same park, supposedly, that is said to be the actual bench that he was sitting on the day he hatched the idea. You've taken Cleo on it, right?

KIM: No, we haven't yet, but I've been talking to her about it lately and we are going to go now after this surge. It's top of the list and she has a book called Los Angeles and it's one of the things in the book. It's all Los Angeles landmarks, so that's in it. So she's super excited. 

AMY: Okay. perfect. Cause yeah, she's a great age for it. But speaking of this particular carousel, the gondola benches on this one are super duper weird. So like carved onto them is this little creepy, hairy naked guy and he's chasing a naked girl. So when you take Cleo, look for this. I remember the first time being like, "What is this? Why are these naked weirdos on the gondola?" I want to say that they are supposed to be Caliban and Miranda from "The Tempest." I do remember reading that somewhere, that that's who that is on the bench. So keep an eye out for that when you take her.

KIM: That makes sense, but it's still really a strange choice. Unexpected. Anyway, trying to think of other carousels in literature though.... I know one factors into the book Something Wicked This Way Comes by Ray Bradbury. You've read that, of course. 

AMY: No, I don't like science fiction very much. 

KIM: That's true. That's right. Okay. I read all the science fiction.

AMY: All right, so there's also the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical "Carousel," which was originally adapted from a Hungarian play. I know you're not into musicals, but have you seen "Carousel?"

KIM: I'm into some musicals. I love "The Music Man" and stuff, but I don't have a wide repertoire of musicals and no, I have not seen "Carousel."

AMY: So it's really kind of creepy. Um, there's a kind of predatory love interest/leading man named Billy Bigelow, who works at a carnival as the carousel barker, and that musical, "Carousel," has come to be known as "the wife-beater musical." 

KIM: No. 

AMY: Yeah, cause he's just, he's kind of a bad dude and he doesn't treat the heroine all that great. But she loves him anyway. 

KIM: You're not selling this for me, for sure. 

AMY: I know. Um, my high school put on a production of this musical way back in the day. And actually Jennie Malone, who wrote our Lost Ladies of Lit theme music, she was the star of that production. So I went and saw it, but I remember watching it and thinking "This story is disturbing on multiple levels." And I think it's kind of now been #metoo'd out of existence. But it does have really good music.

KIM: Um, I wouldn't have thought a musical called "Carousel" would be so troubling. Um, maybe there's a reason I never watched it. It doesn't sound like "Grease," which is my speed. But anyway, since we're on topic of riding horses, albeit fake ones, this is kind of a great segue into mentioning that we received a couple of letters recently regarding our mini episode on the lost art of riding side saddle. That's an episode that aired about a year ago. Suffice to say, I think we maybe touched a nerve with a few sidesaddlers out there. 

AMY: Ruh-roh, what did we do? Um, of all the episodes I thought could be contentious, that is not one I ever anticipated. But then again, the fact that we even used Suzanne Somers' ThighMaster in that episode to explain how a side saddle works should be evidence enough that we are maybe not your official authority figures on riding side saddle.

KIM: No kidding. And in fact, I feel like that episode should have been maybe listed as a comedy in terms of how much we actually know about side saddles, but anyway, we welcome any and all perspectives, of course, especially since these two letters are from people with actual experience in riding side saddle. So without further ado, let's share the gist of those letters. 

AMY: So our first letter writer says, uh, "Firstly, I'm very disappointed to hear how you describe side saddle and side saddle writers. You say we "just perch on the side." You mentioned it taxes the muscles unevenly, and that the poor horse would be written by someone not centered on its back. These comments you have made are categorically false and many women that currently ride sidesaddle would find them highly offensive. I ride side saddle myself. I am not perched to the side and my muscles are not taxed unevenly because my hips are central on the horse's back, no different to if I was astride. I have spent hours in the saddle, and because I am central, I have no aches or pains. This style of riding isn't any more dangerous than astride riding, and apart from if your saddle wasn't to fit correctly, it doesn't affect the horse any different. I am deeply offended by your comments. If you have no idea about this style of riding, how can you possibly make such indecent comments? Ladies like myself work and train very hard to be at a level of sidesaddle, and to hear two women portray it with false information like you have is absolutely appalling. You should be praising women like ourselves who are trying to keep tradition and history alive, not slating us with false facts. I shall be not sharing your podcast to fellow side saddle riders or equestrians in fear they will also be offended. You should be utterly ashamed with your preposterous comments." And then the next day we received a kind of similar letter.

KIM: Yeah, coincidence.

AMY: Yeah. Um, this is from a member of the Sidesaddle Association who currently competes against astride riders in dressage, show jumping and eventing. And she writes: "You ride centrally over the horse's back, and it is not cruel. As to the unsafe nature of riding astride, I would argue that in some cases, being attached better to your saddle, as you are aside, makes you safer than astride, particularly for difficult horses. The safety mechanisms developed over the years to protect riders, male and female, riding sidesaddle proves that lives did matter." Um, so it's good to have that perspective from somebody that actually does it, you know. Charmian Kittredge London, who lobbied against the practice of riding sidesaddle, might beg to differ with those claims, but honestly, Kim, you and I have no pony in this race. Pun intended. I mean, as we mentioned in that episode, so long as riding side saddle is a man or woman's choice and not their only socially acceptable option, we're all for it. We are not trying to get side saddle riding canceled, rest assured. 

KIM: Yeah, we're actually incredibly impressed by people who choose to do it and compete in it. We would not be able to do that in our wildest dreams, but we think that you're awesome. Anyway, all this hullabaloo about this makes me wonder if they'll still let us wear tweed and attend the Dianas of the Chase race in England. And that's the most important thing. I don't want to be kicked out of that! 

AMY: I hope they don't come after us with riding crops.

KIM: I know, and actually one of the letter writers encouraged us to give sidesaddle riding a try. So maybe we'll have to put that on our bucket list alongside going falconing and that sort of thing. 

AMY: Probably not though. Probably not going to jibe with my current healthcare deductible.

KIM: My balance isn't that good. 

AMY: Well, anyway, that's all for today's episode. Please though, keep those emails coming in to us. We appreciate them all, and tune in next week when we'll be introducing you to yet another lost lady of literature.

KIM: Our theme song was written and performed by Jennie Malone and our logo was designed by Harriet Grant. Lost Ladies of Lit is produced by Kim Askew and Amy Helmes. Giddy-up!